RCAF Interrogation Report on Flying Saucers – June 21 to 23 1952

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Purpose of Interrogation:

The RCAF was informed by Mr. REDACTED an ex-RCAF officer, that a German immigrant, residing at Cornwall, Ontario, had knowledge of German Flying Saucers design and production. An interview was arranged
and the report that follows has been divided into three parts covering three periods of interrogation.

FIRST PART
Interrogation by: /L G.A. White,P/L H. Brooks,Mr. S. Shranshonko
Observers: G/c M.W. Timerman,F/0 H.P. Korntoff

Date of Interrogation: 21 June 1952.

Place of Interrogations: AFHQ Ottawa.Source: (Ex-member of German Wehrmacht)

Subject: – Alleged designer of Flying Saucers Welt Schiffe) (World Ships).
Background of Source:

(a) Plage of Birth : Neunkuchen on Brand (Bavaria)
(b) Date of Birth: 7 Nov 1927
(c) Education: REDACTED commenced his formal education at the age of six and continued for eight years to the age of 14 when be entered a civilian flying school. While attending the civilian flying school for period of two years he studied draftsmanship, airframes, aero engines and theory of fight, etc. During this period he qualified on gliders obtaining 400 to 500 hours, Source also qualifled as a pilot, flying approx 500 to 600 hours on Aredos 32′. and REDACTED, stated that the 5 to 600 hours on conventional aircraft were flowing in period of nine months.

Approx one year after entering the civilian flying school (Fliegerhorst Kommandantur A(e) 29/VH) source
stated that he was interviewed by captain named Muller who expressed interest in him. REDACTED was apparently a brilliant student. During the interview source noticed book on unconventional weapons on the Captain’s desk, and exprossed a wish to peruse the document. He stated that Captain Muller was in charge of special projects at the school as well as boing an intelligence officer. It developed that source was selected as one of twelve persons (ages 28 to 40) who began a study on aircraft design. During his training period, the selected twelve were taught a secret code in order that they might communicate with one another on aircraft design. Before leaving the school REDACTED stated that the flying saucer was designed.

Pre-Military Employment

Source had attained the age of sixteen by now and desired to serve on a war front. As he volunteered for the Arbeitdionst(labour service) Capt Muller was unable to retain him at the school to continue his research,

When source was with Arbeitdionst in Italy he was employed as acourier. During this time he communicated regularly by secret code with Capt Muller and gave his opinion and guidance to Capt Mailer in the further
design of the flying saucer.

Source remained with Arbetdienst for six months when he volunteered for combat flying duties.

Military Service

At 16 1/2 years of age in 1944 source volunteered for Military service. He was accepted in the Wehrmacht and assigned to 275 Squadron based at Florence Italy, He was definite that he did not serve in the German Air Force. REDACTED further stated that 275 Squadron was equipped with ME 109 FW and that this squadron was employed in normal combat duties. He stated that the Sqdn aircrew were personnel who had been trained at the civilian flying schools and that the Sqdn was re-deployed every fourteen days to a new location. The uniform worn by 275 Sqdn personnel was of a special design similar to those worn at German civilian flying schools. In Feb 1945 source was shot down over Milan after having destroyed three Thunderbolts and one Mustang. Source was slightly wounded and taken prisoner by the Americans. After a few days he escaped and returned to Herzogenaurach ( appr ax 10 miles N of Murenbourg), the same unit at which source received his flying training as referred in para 7 (c).

REDACTED reported to Capt Muller who was still in charge of special projects at the school and he remained there until the American captured Herzogonaurach in July 1945. During this time source stated that he continued to assist Capt Muller in the design of unconventional weapons.

Upon returning to the school source stated that he inquired of Capt Muller the progress made in the development of the flying saucer. Capt Muller informed him that the flying saucers were being assembled and tested at Stettin and at a loation SB of Munich. It was the latter location that sourcestated that he visited accompanied by Capt Muller.

Source was modeling to disclose tho exact location or this assembly plant. He stated that it was an underground factory located under a mountain. This assembly plant employed approx 150 persons who were completely accommodated witthin the underground factory. Source stated that during his 44-hour visit he saw four flying saucers being assembled.

When the Americans overran the Herzogenaurach area Capt Muller and source were forewarned and attempted to escape with plans of the fying saucer by aircraft. Source stated that a soldier hit Capt Muller when he was leaving & building for the aircraft and attempted to gain possession of the documents.
then shot to private and the wounded Capt told source that he was dying and to destroy the documents. Source then destroyed the documents and was subsequently captured by the Americans.

Because of his age and association with a civilian flying school source stated that he was released immediately by the Americans.

Post War Employment

Source worked with his father and periodically with US Occupation Forces as a plumber at Neunkirchen am Brand until Oct 1951. In Nov 1951 source arrived in Canada and has since been employed as a plumber at
Cornwall, Ont.

Source was married in 1950 and has one child. His family is still in Bavaria.

During the interrogation source produced a flying saucer of his own. He stated at some length that his was much superior to that of the original German design. The plan shown was actually conventional jet with a circular wing.

SECOND PART

Interrogation by: P/D H. Brooks, G/C NW Timmerman, S/L GA White

Observer: Mr. REDACTED

Date of Interrogation: 23 June 52

Place of Interrogation: AFHQ Ottava

General – On 23 June 52, Mr. REDACTED contacted DAI (Director of Air Intelligence) and stated that Mr. REDACTED did not divulge all he knows of the flying saucer and that he had a number of drawings that pertained to the construction of the German flying saucer.

The plans are shown and the explanation of the operation of the design indicated that a more authoritative opinion of its value was necessary. Arrangements were made for the source to be interrogated by NRC (National Research Council) officers.

During the period REDACTED produced photograph of mountain in which the underground factory was concealed. Source offered to guide RCAF representatives to the factory so that copy of parts of flying saucer may be obtained for research purposes. As previously stated source was unwilling to divulge the exact location of the factory. REDACTED was questioned as to why he did not offer this information to the Americans. Source felt that he was not fairly treated by the Americans during the occupation and preferred to hold
the information for Canada.

THIRD PART

Interrogation by:  Mr FR Thurston – Chief Structures laboratory Mr T Stephens, Chief Aero Dynamics Laboratory, Mr. AH Hall, Asst Chief Structures laboratory, Mr RA Tylor – Research Officer Gas Dynamics

Observer: S/L GA White

Date of Interrogation: 23 June 52

Place of Interrogation: NRC, Montreal Road, Ottawa

General

The NRC officers wore requested to review the diagram presented by source and to determine by interrogation whether there was the basis for believing that source did actually design, assist in designing or whether
he had any technical knowledge of the alleged German flying saucer plans presented. Source was thoroughly questioned on all aspects of the design and technical detail of its performance. He stated that in addition to designing the flying saucer he also assisted in the design of the jet engine used in the flying saucer. Source was, however, unable to answer with any accuracy, questions pertaining to types of metals used, fuel used, how various parts of the aircraft operated and/or their size, etc. He was unable to answer many of the questions at all.

The NRC Officers Concluded

(a) that source was a thorough liar,
(b) that he was trying to bluff his way through the interrogation,
(c) that he is technically unqualified to have 2 have much knowledge of aircraft structure or dynamics
(d) that on the information seen and heard it was impossible to determine whether the aircraft would or would-not fly
(e) that there was nothing new, technically or in design, in the plans produced or information heard from source,
(r) that it was very doubtful whether source ever actually saw German flying saucer.

CONCLUSION

It is self-evident that REDACTED has tried to impress the RCAF with his alleged background and knowledge of flying saucers and aircraft design. There are no foundation on for believing that REDACTED ever had anything more to do with official German aircraft designing than possibly submitting one of his own designs. It is very
doubtful whether source oversaw a flying saucer, although it is possible that he visited one of the German underground factories. It is felt that source was endeavoring to (a) interest the RCAF in his own
aircraft design and thereby obtain employment or (b) obtain a free passage back to Bavaria.

RECOMMENDATION

It is recommended that DAI advise source that although his information was of some interest, the RCAF does not intend to pursue the matter any further.

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Defence Research Board – First Commitee Meeting Minutes on Flying Saucer Sightings – April 24, 1952

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Secretary Mr. H. C. Oatway D.R.B.

For the benefit of those who were not present at the general meeting held on April 22nd, the
Chairman opened the meeting with a brief resume of discussions leading to the formation of this Committee
and the terms of reference. He then tabled three books by Kehoe, Scully, and Heard dealing with Flying Saucers sightings as worthy study as they give a fairly useful summary of the most important publically recorded sightings. These can be used in addition to newspaper reports.

S/L Bing tabled a report by the RCAF relative to the USAF project on Flying Saucers.

This report is to be duplicated by the RCAF and copies passed to the Secretary for distribution to the Committee members.

The question of the security classification of the work of the committee was then discussed, It was agreed that CONFIDENTIAL was sufficient, but that members should be cleared to SECRET to facilitate any exchange of information from international sources.

The Chairman stated that it would probably be better to divorce this work from the questionable title of “Flying Saucers”, and thought that entirely without meaning some names such as “Project Theta” should be adopted.

The Committee agreed in principle to this suggestion. with the exception that the project name is not to be used during the exchange of information of an international character. Such “exchanges” are to be effected through established channels only. There being no further suggestions acceptable, the name “Project
Theta” was adopted, subject to investigation by the Secretary as to the validity of the use and possible duplication of the name.

The possibility of obtaining U.S. data on a reciprocal basis was considered desirable and the Secretary was instructed to have this effect made formal approach through the DRB Member in Washington.

Consideration was given to the Interrogation form presently in use by the RCAF.

After discussion, it was agreed that the form should immediately be revised with accompanying instructions for its use.

The revised form (copy attached) was drawn up and copies are to be distributed next meeting, by the Secretary prior to the next meeting. The preparation of the instructions was divided among the members as follows:

D.O.T………Balloons, Reflections, Halos, and mirages
R.C.A.F…….Aircraft, Rockets and missiles
Dom.Obsery…Meteors, Planets, Aurora

All Members to contribute to items 12, 13 and 18.1

The Committee agreed to meet again on May 6th to finalize the interrogation form and pertinent
instructions.

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Defence Research Board – Meeting Minutes on Flying Saucer Sightings – April 22, 1952

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Secretary: Mr. H. C. Oatway (DRB)

The Chairman opened the meeting with a brief reference to the more frequent occurrence of “Flying Saucer” sightings. The frequency and persistency of the sightings would tend to discount the theory of ‘hallucinations’. This, coupled with an aroused public interest in these sightings, tended to call for a more active stand on the matter.

At present, the gathering of reports was rather haphazard and the reaction of the Services was passive. It 1s thought that a more active and intensive effort should be made to obtain these data on an organized basis, and all reports investigated and analyzed. The objects of the meeting were then to determine if a more serious effort is justified and, if so, ways and means of implementing an organized effort.

Organizations such as the Observer Corps might be enlisted for the job of the sighting. If nothing else, this could serve as useful training for the Corps. An examination of the theories might prove useful in giving a lead to the best locations for sighting.

It was fortunate that proponents of the theories of terrestrial and extraterrestrial origins were in contact with the D.R.B. and their data could be examined first hand.

The Air Force representatives then briefly outlined the work done by the USAF up to a year or so ago. As these efforts consistently resulted in ‘nil returns’ their project, in so far as the press and public were concerned at least, had very recently, however, this investigation was re-opened but is now classified.

In the discussions whích followed, it was pointed out that precise and realistic detaíls were lacking in all known reports. If observers such as the Rangers, watchers on shipboard, and the Observer Corps, which incidéntally is really still in the paper organization stage, are to be enlisted some well-planned guidance would be necessary.

A small booklet illustrating typical celestial phenomena would result in more intelligent observation and eliminate many erroneous impressions. It was considered desirable to obtain information from U.S.
interviews obtained under proper interrogation, procedure, but to avoid the U.S. analysis of these interviews which was often unacceptable to some members, of this Committee.

Mr. Smith briefly outlined the extra-terrestrial origin theory.’ A plot of the frequency and timing of sighting related to the opposition of the planet Mars to the earth was displayed. Sightings occur at approximately six-week intervals, but the frequency is much higher during periods when the planets are nearing each other such as in the present month. The more reliable observations place these objects at heights of 100 to 300 miles moving with velocities in the order of 1000 – 2000 mph. Terrestrial bodies making ‘use of airfoils could not operate at these heights. Size and power limitations also negate earthy origins. The briliançe of sighting after sunset could be explained by reflections from the body at these altitudes of the sun’s illumination, or in daylight by frictional heating or other magnetic heating effects.

Considering the orbital velocities of the earth and Mars (18 and 15 miles per second respectively) and their nearest positions (e.g. 52,000,000 miles on May 8th) with continuous acceleration of 2 g for 3 or 4 days, these distánces could be traversed.

Mr. Langley stated that no electronic reports had been received of flying saucers. It was generally agreed that no electromagnetic radiations had ever been found which could not be traced to terrèstrial origin. If electronics are associated with these objects, their frequencies are outside the presently usable ranges. M. Smith then elaborated on the work of the ionosphere stations that had been asked to report any unusual findings, but with ‘nil returns’ to date. The Chairman outlined in broad terms the theory of terrestrial origin, namely a new type_ of aircraft (presumably Russian) as expounded by Mr. Frost of the A.V. Roe Company. This theory had some discrepancies, but the aerodynamics were worth following as, even if of extra-terrestrial origin, the bodies would have to follow aerodynamic theory within the earth’s atmosphere. Also, a new high-speed aircraft design might be evolved. The theories outlined should give an impetus to the flying saucer investigations.

It was generally agreed that a more active investigation should be undertaken. The Chairman believed
that the function of the D.R.B. should be mainly advisory as the collecting of reports could best be done by field organizations.

The representatives of. the Services agreed and will use their discretion in the choice of their more
suitable sections to use for observers.

It was decided that a Committee should be formed to give a lead in this ‘activity and to standardize procedures, etc. Accordingly, the following were nominated and agreed to act:

Dr. Millman (Chairman) G/C Edwards, Lt. Col. Vebb, Cdr Pratt, F/L Bradley, and Mr. Oatway (Secretary) this committee was to prépare a brief of instructions for observers; examine interrogation procedures
to get a consolidated end pertinent series of questions and to establish a standard method of recording and
indexing for subsequent analysis.

Finally, G/C Edwards suggested that the RCMP might prove to be a valuable addition as observers. This organization has the added advantage of having trained interrogators.

The Chairman thanked those present for attending and for their willingness to aid in these investigations.

26 April 1952.
OTTAWA.

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