Purpose of Interrogation:
The RCAF was informed by Mr. REDACTED an ex-RCAF officer, that a German immigrant, residing at Cornwall, Ontario, had knowledge of German Flying Saucers design and production. An interview was arranged
and the report that follows has been divided into three parts covering three periods of interrogation.
Interrogation by: /L G.A. White,P/L H. Brooks,Mr. S. Shranshonko
Observers: G/c M.W. Timerman,F/0 H.P. Korntoff
Date of Interrogation: 21 June 1952.
Place of Interrogations: AFHQ Ottawa.Source: (Ex-member of German Wehrmacht)
Subject: – Alleged designer of Flying Saucers Welt Schiffe) (World Ships).
Background of Source:
(a) Plage of Birth : Neunkuchen on Brand (Bavaria)
(b) Date of Birth: 7 Nov 1927
(c) Education: REDACTED commenced his formal education at the age of six and continued for eight years to the age of 14 when be entered a civilian flying school. While attending the civilian flying school for period of two years he studied draftsmanship, airframes, aero engines and theory of fight, etc. During this period he qualified on gliders obtaining 400 to 500 hours, Source also qualifled as a pilot, flying approx 500 to 600 hours on Aredos 32′. and REDACTED, stated that the 5 to 600 hours on conventional aircraft were flowing in period of nine months.
Approx one year after entering the civilian flying school (Fliegerhorst Kommandantur A(e) 29/VH) source
stated that he was interviewed by captain named Muller who expressed interest in him. REDACTED was apparently a brilliant student. During the interview source noticed book on unconventional weapons on the Captain’s desk, and exprossed a wish to peruse the document. He stated that Captain Muller was in charge of special projects at the school as well as boing an intelligence officer. It developed that source was selected as one of twelve persons (ages 28 to 40) who began a study on aircraft design. During his training period, the selected twelve were taught a secret code in order that they might communicate with one another on aircraft design. Before leaving the school REDACTED stated that the flying saucer was designed.
Source had attained the age of sixteen by now and desired to serve on a war front. As he volunteered for the Arbeitdionst(labour service) Capt Muller was unable to retain him at the school to continue his research,
When source was with Arbeitdionst in Italy he was employed as acourier. During this time he communicated regularly by secret code with Capt Muller and gave his opinion and guidance to Capt Mailer in the further
design of the flying saucer.
Source remained with Arbetdienst for six months when he volunteered for combat flying duties.
At 16 1/2 years of age in 1944 source volunteered for Military service. He was accepted in the Wehrmacht and assigned to 275 Squadron based at Florence Italy, He was definite that he did not serve in the German Air Force. REDACTED further stated that 275 Squadron was equipped with ME 109 FW and that this squadron was employed in normal combat duties. He stated that the Sqdn aircrew were personnel who had been trained at the civilian flying schools and that the Sqdn was re-deployed every fourteen days to a new location. The uniform worn by 275 Sqdn personnel was of a special design similar to those worn at German civilian flying schools. In Feb 1945 source was shot down over Milan after having destroyed three Thunderbolts and one Mustang. Source was slightly wounded and taken prisoner by the Americans. After a few days he escaped and returned to Herzogenaurach ( appr ax 10 miles N of Murenbourg), the same unit at which source received his flying training as referred in para 7 (c).
REDACTED reported to Capt Muller who was still in charge of special projects at the school and he remained there until the American captured Herzogonaurach in July 1945. During this time source stated that he continued to assist Capt Muller in the design of unconventional weapons.
Upon returning to the school source stated that he inquired of Capt Muller the progress made in the development of the flying saucer. Capt Muller informed him that the flying saucers were being assembled and tested at Stettin and at a loation SB of Munich. It was the latter location that sourcestated that he visited accompanied by Capt Muller.
Source was modeling to disclose tho exact location or this assembly plant. He stated that it was an underground factory located under a mountain. This assembly plant employed approx 150 persons who were completely accommodated witthin the underground factory. Source stated that during his 44-hour visit he saw four flying saucers being assembled.
When the Americans overran the Herzogenaurach area Capt Muller and source were forewarned and attempted to escape with plans of the fying saucer by aircraft. Source stated that a soldier hit Capt Muller when he was leaving & building for the aircraft and attempted to gain possession of the documents.
then shot to private and the wounded Capt told source that he was dying and to destroy the documents. Source then destroyed the documents and was subsequently captured by the Americans.
Because of his age and association with a civilian flying school source stated that he was released immediately by the Americans.
Post War Employment
Source worked with his father and periodically with US Occupation Forces as a plumber at Neunkirchen am Brand until Oct 1951. In Nov 1951 source arrived in Canada and has since been employed as a plumber at
Source was married in 1950 and has one child. His family is still in Bavaria.
During the interrogation source produced a flying saucer of his own. He stated at some length that his was much superior to that of the original German design. The plan shown was actually conventional jet with a circular wing.
Interrogation by: P/D H. Brooks, G/C NW Timmerman, S/L GA White
Observer: Mr. REDACTED
Date of Interrogation: 23 June 52
Place of Interrogation: AFHQ Ottava
General – On 23 June 52, Mr. REDACTED contacted DAI (Director of Air Intelligence) and stated that Mr. REDACTED did not divulge all he knows of the flying saucer and that he had a number of drawings that pertained to the construction of the German flying saucer.
The plans are shown and the explanation of the operation of the design indicated that a more authoritative opinion of its value was necessary. Arrangements were made for the source to be interrogated by NRC (National Research Council) officers.
During the period REDACTED produced photograph of mountain in which the underground factory was concealed. Source offered to guide RCAF representatives to the factory so that copy of parts of flying saucer may be obtained for research purposes. As previously stated source was unwilling to divulge the exact location of the factory. REDACTED was questioned as to why he did not offer this information to the Americans. Source felt that he was not fairly treated by the Americans during the occupation and preferred to hold
the information for Canada.
Interrogation by: Mr FR Thurston – Chief Structures laboratory Mr T Stephens, Chief Aero Dynamics Laboratory, Mr. AH Hall, Asst Chief Structures laboratory, Mr RA Tylor – Research Officer Gas Dynamics
Observer: S/L GA White
Date of Interrogation: 23 June 52
Place of Interrogation: NRC, Montreal Road, Ottawa
The NRC officers wore requested to review the diagram presented by source and to determine by interrogation whether there was the basis for believing that source did actually design, assist in designing or whether
he had any technical knowledge of the alleged German flying saucer plans presented. Source was thoroughly questioned on all aspects of the design and technical detail of its performance. He stated that in addition to designing the flying saucer he also assisted in the design of the jet engine used in the flying saucer. Source was, however, unable to answer with any accuracy, questions pertaining to types of metals used, fuel used, how various parts of the aircraft operated and/or their size, etc. He was unable to answer many of the questions at all.
The NRC Officers Concluded
(a) that source was a thorough liar,
(b) that he was trying to bluff his way through the interrogation,
(c) that he is technically unqualified to have 2 have much knowledge of aircraft structure or dynamics
(d) that on the information seen and heard it was impossible to determine whether the aircraft would or would-not fly
(e) that there was nothing new, technically or in design, in the plans produced or information heard from source,
(r) that it was very doubtful whether source ever actually saw German flying saucer.
It is self-evident that REDACTED has tried to impress the RCAF with his alleged background and knowledge of flying saucers and aircraft design. There are no foundation on for believing that REDACTED ever had anything more to do with official German aircraft designing than possibly submitting one of his own designs. It is very
doubtful whether source oversaw a flying saucer, although it is possible that he visited one of the German underground factories. It is felt that source was endeavoring to (a) interest the RCAF in his own
aircraft design and thereby obtain employment or (b) obtain a free passage back to Bavaria.
It is recommended that DAI advise source that although his information was of some interest, the RCAF does not intend to pursue the matter any further.
Retrieved from: Government of Canada
Retrieved By: Ryan Stacey